Curse

ErrantVenture · Nov 15, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

you can spam it about the same as before. you just need to push a button more often. overall gvg got somehow better, because people die due to kills more than flagger pushes.

This. The actual amount of bleed you can put out now has a hard cap, but you can still old it on 4 people, and sins are running jagged strike a lot now which makes up for the necro's loss of bleed spam. I'm just wondering why I'm not seeing more rit lord flaggers atm.

Apok · Nov 15, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

I'd still like to see Assault Enchantments nerfed. Maybe a 10 sec recharge or cannot use twice in a row.

Overall, I believe this update raises a question that should've been raised when LoD was still preferred: Where do we want party heals to be casted from?

Ensign · Nov 15, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Heal party was massive problem, flaggers being able to sit at radar ranger and pump out 125 point party heals uncontested was not good for the game. So it had to go.

I saw that character more as a response to a problem than the root cause unto itself. It was a horribly weak and inflexible character with no tools, which needed constant babysitting. You really did not want to run it. At the same time, it was the only character that could pump enough party heals to keep you alive against hexes and sins.

Trouble was, in every other match-up you still had it as deadweight on your backline, it needed extra babysitting because the characters gunning for it were so much stronger, and consequentially everyone had to play super defensive to protect their backline. That led to lots of running around and no one dying until the suicide runs at 25.

So I won't miss pos HB/HP guy. But I'm not sure that the root issues that made it necessary are fixed either.

Anon-e-mouse · Nov 15, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

Splitting skills is not the answer to anything. PvE became the mess it is now by splitting skills and fueling powercreep and build wars. I'd agree that sometimes it is ok to split skills, but it shouldn't be the first option.

Agreed that it shouldn't be the first option, but it does need to be an option. Half the problem with PvE is that the skills that the foes used were so often abused in PvP, that when they got nerfed, PvE became MUCH easier.

ErrantVenture · Nov 15, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I saw that character more as a response to a problem than the root cause unto itself. It was a horribly weak and inflexible character with no tools, which needed constant babysitting. You really did not want to run it. At the same time, it was the only character that could pump enough party heals to keep you alive against hexes and sins.

Trouble was, in every other match-up you still had it as deadweight on your backline, it needed extra babysitting because the characters gunning for it were so much stronger, and consequentially everyone had to play super defensive to protect their backline. That led to lots of running around and no one dying until the suicide runs at 25.

So I won't miss pos HB/HP guy. But I'm not sure that the root issues that made it necessary are fixed either.

Honestly the HB/HP flagger was a lot more useful in most situations than a rit. It had better party healing and single target healing than a rit. It can remove hexes and conditions. It's only real disadvantage over a rit was its vulnerability to strips and it's lack of a snare (meant trapping splits in base was more difficult). Rits used to be outstanding, but the continuous nerfs to ever skill that rit flaggers have relied upon through the years (pious haste, warding, resilient, recup, pots, splinter, arage, etc) have made them really weak compared to monk flaggers. The only reason monk flaggers are going out now is their lack of party healing compared to rits. In every other way they're superior at this point in the game.

diabiosx · Nov 15, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Honestly the HB/HP flagger was a lot more useful in most situations than a rit. It had better party healing and single target healing than a rit. It can remove hexes and conditions. It's only real disadvantage over a rit was its vulnerability to strips and it's lack of a snare (meant trapping splits in base was more difficult). Rits used to be outstanding, but the continuous nerfs to ever skill that rit flaggers have relied upon through the years (pious haste, warding, resilient, recup, pots, splinter, arage, etc) have made them really weak compared to monk flaggers. The only reason monk flaggers are going out now is their lack of party healing compared to rits. In every other way they're superior at this point in the game.

Well one of the reason for the nerf is because it makes for a boring game. Spamming Heal Party in the middle of no where gets stale. Rits are more proactive.

Xiaquin · Nov 15, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

With the nerfing of ranger DPS and paragon support skills we (the developers and the PvP community) essentially decided that a character shouldn't be able to have utility and big damage at the same time. A profession should play one role, either that of a utility tool box or of a damage pumper.

I'm sure few here care about JQ, but, what about this?

Apok · Nov 15, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I'm sure few here care about JQ, but, what about this?

That is simply proof of how OP the Smiting Prayers line is.

FoxBat · Nov 15, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

JQ is inherently even more degenerate than hero battles, balancing skills around it isn't as good an idea as deleting it.

*lemming* · Nov 15, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I'm sure few here care about JQ, but, what about this?

That's what happens when PvE mechanics mix into PvP.

Ensign · Nov 15, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Honestly the HB/HP flagger was a lot more useful in most situations than a rit. It had better party healing and single target healing than a rit. It can remove hexes and conditions. It's only real disadvantage over a rit was its vulnerability to strips and it's lack of a snare (meant trapping splits in base was more difficult). Rits used to be outstanding, but the continuous nerfs to ever skill that rit flaggers have relied upon through the years (pious haste, warding, resilient, recup, pots, splinter, arage, etc) have made them really weak compared to monk flaggers.

I can't disagree. Rits have been nerfed repeatedly and hard, and don't have a single good skill left. Healer's Boon guys, as bad as they were, at least still had a Guardian / Mendtouch backbone. Rits are just a couple marginal party heals and a bunch of trash.

Pretty much any runner you can take now is a boring POS that needs to be babysat; whatever holds the party heals is going to suck yak dung, so you'd better make it move flags much of the time instead of being a liability in a fight.

Apok · Nov 15, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I can't disagree. Rits have been nerfed repeatedly and hard, and don't have a single good skill left. Healer's Boon guys, as bad as they were, at least still had a Guardian / Mendtouch backbone. Rits are just a couple marginal party heals and a bunch of trash.

Pretty much any runner you can take now is a boring POS that needs to be babysat; whatever holds the party heals is going to suck yak dung, so you'd better make it move flags much of the time instead of being a liability in a fight.

And this is why I feel that party heals should be the job of the backline at the flagstand, instead of making the flagrunner just a basesitter. The Healing Burst change was a step in the right direction, but I fear the buff wasn't big enough to warrant a weening from WoH.

I dunno. The whole idea of someone outside the fight still effecting the outcome kinda bothers me...

Steps_Descending · Nov 16, 2010, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Second, I acknowledged that the nerf to MoI isnt even much of a nerf at all. It doesnt even really matter. The reason why I dont like it is because im afraid that the practice of nerfing/buffing skills in one format because of issues in the other format is a slippery slope. Next time, the nerf could actually be a bigger deal in PvE. Also, saying that a skill shouldnt be split because it isnt meta is silly. A large portion of the PvE players dont necessarily use meta builds.

Interesting, I see the reverse as a slipery slope. Start to split simple numbers in a format to make (say...) ele's fireball competitive as damage. Next thing we know is more skills becoming "overpowered". Then you change a number to make an underused skill really different (ER). Then it's an underused one that gets a complete overhaul (UA) but that's worth it. Then it's just random skils that get complete overhaul, then it's attributes, then you make things that are "impossible" in pvp (UA again) then PvE nombers start to be counted in the 3digits. Then you have completely different games.

(edit ok ok late reply I know)

NerfHerder · Nov 16, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

That is simply proof of how OP the Smiting Prayers line is.

It's actually just proof of how poor the NPC AI in JQ is. Make them scatter when they get hit with RoJ and all of a sudden Smiting Prayers doesnt seem so OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

JQ is inherently even more degenerate than hero battles, balancing skills around it isn't as good an idea as deleting it.

I dont think balancing PvP skills around AB/CMs would be a good idea either. Although, it would be hilarious. Improving NPC AI/Skill Bars and the bug that makes carriers stuck would be a better solution.

Missing HB · Nov 16, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I dont think balancing PvP skills around AB/CMs would be a good idea either. Although, it would be hilarious. Improving NPC AI/Skill Bars and the bug that makes carriers stuck would be a better solution.

However , Op's builds in one format are rarely used in other ones. I don't believe it would have mattered a lot to :
- change damages from RoJ
- make all enchants disappear when you use any teleport skill( apply for JQ bombers and HB teleporters )

Konker2020 · Nov 16, 2010, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadS

All I hear is bitching about everything. They are giving you guys updates, whether it's not what you expected, it's an update. You'll get your big update in time. Chill out, Jesus.

It's damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The problem is, this skill update is yet again 4 months late. And half of the changes are dartboard. For example, wtf was the point in changing Enraging Charge? It's sad that they make statement after statement about how one time frame is shifting to another and then still don't follow through on it, and when they finally release the update, it's crap. I gave up on them releasing anything useful, but now they are changing skills that don't need a change. It doesn't impress me one bit, and as I've seen, nor does it impress many others.

*lemming* · Nov 16, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

The problem is, this skill update is yet again 4 months late. And half of the changes are dartboard. For example, wtf was the point in changing Enraging Charge? It's sad that they make statement after statement about how one time frame is shifting to another and then still don't follow through on it, and when they finally release the update, it's crap. I gave up on them releasing anything useful, but now they are changing skills that don't need a change. It doesn't impress me one bit, and as I've seen, nor does it impress many others.

The update's not crap to those it was intended for. Not amazing, but certainly better than nothing.

Xiaquin · Nov 16, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

It's actually just proof of how poor the NPC AI in JQ is. Make them scatter when they get hit with RoJ and all of a sudden Smiting Prayers doesnt seem so OP.

RoJ has no place in PvP, let alone PvE in its current form. The original version was a lot more balanced.

Lanier · Nov 16, 2010, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Interesting, I see the reverse as a slipery slope. Start to split simple numbers in a format to make (say...) ele's fireball competitive as damage. Next thing we know is more skills becoming "overpowered". Then you change a number to make an underused skill really different (ER). Then it's an underused one that gets a complete overhaul (UA) but that's worth it. Then it's just random skils that get complete overhaul, then it's attributes, then you make things that are "impossible" in pvp (UA again) then PvE nombers start to be counted in the 3digits. Then you have completely different games.

(edit ok ok late reply I know)

Haha, yea, it is a late reply but i agree completely and i guess i should have worded my post better. In my mind, the same is true for both buffs and nerfs (and in either format).

ErrantVenture · Nov 16, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

The problem is, this skill update is yet again 4 months late. And half of the changes are dartboard. For example, wtf was the point in changing Enraging Charge? It's sad that they make statement after statement about how one time frame is shifting to another and then still don't follow through on it, and when they finally release the update, it's crap. I gave up on them releasing anything useful, but now they are changing skills that don't need a change. It doesn't impress me one bit, and as I've seen, nor does it impress many others.

Enraging charge was nerfed to slow adrenaline gain on hammer warriors. The ability to quickly gain adrenaline has increased exponentially since the game started (spears, flail, and countless other skills added to the game facilitate adren building) which means hammer wars can now spit out skills at a much higher rate than they were ever meant to. In GvG where trip melee builds featuring two hammer wars are very common, this represented a big problem. Therefore, the enraging charge change was both relevant, and necessary.